EP 131: How Giving Birth To Death Brought Life With Miscarriage, Stillbirth, and Infant Loss Author Christina Varvel

The journey through loss is as unique as a fingerprint, and yet it binds us together in a shared human experience that often goes unspoken. Christina Varvel, a compassionate voice in the wilderness of grief, joins us to share her story of endurance through the stillbirth and miscarriage of her two sons. With honesty that cuts to the heart, she offers a beacon of "Living Hope" to those navigating the murky waters of sorrow. Her tale not only reflects on the personal trials following the loss of a child but also provides a platform for us to honor the difficult conversations that can lead to profound healing and connection.

JUMP RIGHT TO IT:

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9:57 Miscarriage Challenges, Importance of Support

22:43 Navigating Grief and Feelings of Shame

44:07 Overcoming Isolation and Normalizing Grief

50:44 Healing in Marriage

CONNECT WITH CHRISTINA:

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To buy the book: https://bit.ly/3H2DEZx

Here is the form for anyone who has lost a baby (miscarriage, stillborn, infant) and wants to share their experience: https://www.christinavarvel.com/griever-survey

Website: www.christinavarvel.com

Email: christinavarvel@gmail.com 

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:22

Hi friends, welcome back to the Imperfectly Empowered podcast. I am your host, anna Fulmer. Today, before we get started, I want to give what we would call a sensitive material disclaimer. This can be very triggering for some women men as well but today we are talking about miscarriage, stillbirth and infant loss. It is an honor to have Christina Varvel today on the show to share her poignant story. She is a registered dietitian and blogger at ChristinaVarvelcom and she is the author of Living Hope how Giving Birth to Death Brought Life, where she shares her poignant testimony of finding hope amidst the grief of losing two sons. Passionate about creating an open, empathetic dialogue about miscarriage, stillbirth and infant loss. Welcome. Advocate and author, christina Varvel. Hi, hey, hello, oh, my gosh, this is so fun to see you. I know it's in forever. It really has. I was actually thinking about it. I think the last I saw you would have been at Heather's Funeral. Yes, yeah, that's right, which is years?

Speaker 2: 1:36

ago, which is why I had.

Speaker 1: 1:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, oh it's such an honor.

Speaker 2: 1:42

Yeah, I was. Yeah and I at Heather's Funeral. I was very, I was like let's see, two months, one month, two months, one month, two months. I'm trying to think of how far along I was pregnant with the twins, the twins. I remember that I was just like newly pregnant with them.

Speaker 1: 2:02

So yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:04

Yeah, well it's.

Speaker 1: 2:05

I'm so excited to dive into your story. I basically cried my way through this entire book.

Speaker 1: 2:11

I'm like sitting in my office sobbing and I'm like well, if anyone comes in here, they're going to think I just like lost a loved one, which is kind of how I felt. It wasn't like my loved one, yeah, and that's how I felt. But for all of you guys listening and watching, this is Christina Varville. Now what's fun is what? If people don't know? Christine and I actually go way back. But it's not like we were best friends forever. It's just we knew each other from college At Cedarville University. You were there for one semester, no one semester, yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:44

And then she peaced out. She's like enough of the cornfields Well.

Speaker 1: 2:48

I went to more cornfields at Purdue University.

Speaker 2: 2:51

So it wasn't like I really changed. It was like a lateral cornfield transition.

Speaker 1: 2:56

Yes, yeah, it was what did you study at Purdue?

Speaker 2: 2:59

Dietetics so yeah, okay, dietitian, nutritionists. Oh, that makes sense. Yes, yeah, yeah, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 3:10

Before we dive into your story and the book, give us a little bit of background and context for how you got to where you are right now and I gave an intro so for everyone listening and watching you kind of have an idea of what the book is about and what we're going to dive into. But give us a little bit of the backstory and sort of how you even got to this point of writing this book so you can tell us a little bit about you and Brett and your family up until this point.

Speaker 2: 3:42

Yes. So I guess kind of where we were. I had two children, an older daughter and a son, and they were oh my goodness, do I think, of age. You know, it was kind of like the kindergarten-ish, you know, toddler stage right.

Speaker 2: 4:06

And we had always knew that we wanted more kids. We didn't feel peace about stopping at just two children and but kind of where we were at for a while because there was going to be an age gap, we just didn't have peace of then having it. My husband is a filmmaker, he's an actor and director and let's just say it's not been an easy road in the filmmaking journey. That's a whole nother probably podcast, but so we literally live kind of project to project. It's literally daily manna for us, and where kind of Brett was in the season of life, it was kind of in this waiting period and financially we weren't really felt peace about having, you know, children and whatnot. But then of course, is there ever a good time to have children, and I am definitely a type A planner and there is that like things have to feel, like they have to line up and in every and all of that and that is part of, I think, part of my story too is God wants me to know that I cannot control my life, I cannot play in all of the details and only he is sovereign and in control of everything. And so, anyways, there was just a time where we were kind of like we can't keep waiting, let's, let's try to have some more children.

Speaker 2: 5:36

And with my first two I had absolutely no problem getting pregnant, very just like immediately, you know not. There was no fear or even thought of a miscarriage, which I think is very common for most people before. It's just like you just you don't think like, yeah, I'm going to have a child, you know, and, and you get the news, the pregnancy test and all of that, and so that's kind of how it was with my first two children. And so came time to, ok, let's start trying. I got pregnant right away. And then at 13 weeks, it was just a normal kind of go in check up and where they just do the heart Doppler, just want to hear the heartbeat, and I had my, my children with me, my older two children, because again, I just was like this is normal, I'm just going to hear the heartbeat and we're just going to say, yep, you're on your way, type of thing.

Speaker 2: 6:31

And that's when the story begins. And I did not hear heartbeat and the doctor did not, and she was like, well, let's do an ultrasound. And sure enough, I had lost that child. And so then the grief story begins. I did not ever set out to write a book.

Speaker 1: 6:56

It actually happened by accident which typically is what the best authors say, so I'll throw that out there.

Speaker 2: 7:03

Well, good, well, you know when I was thinking about that, I feel like, in a lot of ways, people, when things just they fall in your lap right.

Speaker 2: 7:12

Like you, didn't plan it to happen and so I did not sit down and say I'm going to write a book about this, not at all. It came out of more. I am, I always was a journaler, since junior high. I have, I have all my journals and I am a verbal processor. I, I emote, I'm a very emotional person and how I process I have to get it out. And that was then in the form of writing and, like I remember, it was probably I'm trying to remember the timeline but it was probably like a week after we had lost the baby and I I kind of go through my the journey of how the my doctor, I was right on the line of the first and second trimester and that's where she gave me the option of you know, we can do a DNC or you, you could actually go in labor and we, we chose to. I chose to be induced and was able to.

Speaker 1: 8:19

Which let's pause on that for a second, because they think you know as someone.

Speaker 1: 8:22

So, as a mother myself who and I've said this before on the podcast you know I never had a miscarriage, I never had any difficulty getting pregnant and as much as I can empathize with the sense of losing someone you love, it is just not the same as the you know the struggle of losing a child. Not that we compare grief and what's harder or easier, but just the difference. And so, walking through and this book, I left an Amazon review and I said this, I think, as a woman who has not struggled with these things or walked that journey, it helped to quit me, to understand and come alongside someone who has better, with more understanding. And this was such an interesting, just medical point that I would have, frankly, never thought about, which is ironic because I worked in emergency medicine for 10 years, but when I had women miscarrying, either I delivered the baby right there, which I did several times, or they went to OB and so like, out of my department, and so I never had any follow up with what happened?

Speaker 1: 9:34

after that. So I think this is a really valuable point just of education. When a woman finds out that her child no longer has a heartbeat, there are a couple options from there and share that a little bit like what are those options and maybe advantages, disadvantages to them in your experience.

Speaker 2: 9:57

Yeah, so, and that was the thing. I kind of sat there and I and I and again, I only have heard of a DNC, right Again, I didn't really know much at all about it and we can get to, if we want, a little later about the whole, like nobody talks about miscarriages. So I didn't even. I'm like nobody has told me their story or their experience of it. I may have heard or known a little bit about it, but I kind of was like I asked her, I said so what happens in a DNC? And she was like well, we go in and basically take everything out, and she didn't like she you know I'm sitting there.

Speaker 2: 10:43

In my response I kind of was like I mean to be honest and vulnerable. I was like that sounds like an abortion, you know.

Speaker 1: 10:49

But I was like I know it wasn't abortion because my baby was already you know disease.

Speaker 2: 10:54

But like the whole process of just going in and just like whatever, and I kind of was just like, okay, and because she gave me the option, like we went home and we talked about it and because what I was afraid of, so that of hold, what would it do? It's easier to just rip it off like a bandaid, because when you're suffering and you're in grief and you're in pain, you want it to go away as fast as possible. So that's what we do as humans we want to stop it. And I'm thinking, if I hold that baby, like, is that gonna actually wreck me? Versus?

Speaker 1: 11:30

And for those of you that don't understand, a DNC is dilation keratogen. Basically it is. It's quite literally just like sucking the womb of what's in it, because infection can happen. There's a lot of things like ultimately, the tissue needs to be taken out, is the bottom line, and with that, though, you don't deliver a, a child that you can hold, because it's, you're basically just taking everything out. So that's what she's saying here is she couldn't do that with the DNC.

Speaker 2: 12:04

Correct and so, and now, because again, I was far along, farther along, right. So there is that period where before then, that is just the standard, like you don't, they don't have the option. So I have friends who, again after when I talked to them that, have told me about the DNC it is, it is, it is hard for them, like, and then again that, like I said, that not I was blessed to be at a period where I did have the option, but for those who don't have the option, it is, it is hard because they don't. Some of them, they want it, they want that closure, I guess you could even say, or that they're like this was a baby rather than just a bunch of tissue, you know.

Speaker 2: 12:50

This was a child and they don't have that opportunity, and I know that. That then is a whole different grief.

Speaker 1: 13:00

And I've seen 10 weeks as the smallest that I've seen. I was in my second year of nursing school and I delivered a 10 week fetus basically that had lost a heartbeat in fast track, actually in the ER. That was an experience and at 10 weeks I don't think I've seen less than 10 weeks like actually delivered. But I mean it looks like a tiny, tiny doll, alien is like the best way I can describe it. But it is formed and that's the wildest thing is like you see the formation of toes even at 10 weeks. Like you could start to see little, like genital parts if it's a boy and eyes and hands. I mean it's a really profound experience. So I don't know how, what is? When do you not get the option for delivery?

Speaker 2: 13:50

I think it is once you hit the second trimester At least that's what my physician had kind of told me, because I was at 13 weeks, which is literally on where they say you're transitioning over to the second trimester. So I think if it's before the second trimester. They usually just do the DNC and so forth and so and I know that there's a lot like people can also have a lot of just bleeding they you know even after it, and it can be really hard.

Speaker 2: 14:25

And so and that's something that I think, when you're, when you know someone or you're that has had a miscarriage, and let's say they, whether it is it's earlier or even after, because me actually delivering, I my body thought I just had a baby, so my nose was coming in.

Speaker 2: 14:43

And, like you know, so just because somebody may not like, they still have a lot of physical ramifications, even if on the outside it doesn't look it, and then, of course, the emotional goes even longer that we have to continue to walk through.

Speaker 2: 15:01

I did want to say one thing, though, about a pro, about being able to deliver if somebody were to have that option is that my husband was able to experience the full I mean, and hold our son and go through that, and I think that men, people, it's like kind of like some men it's hard because there is that detachment in the sense of they didn't carry the baby. But I think deep down, a lot of men are also suffering, but they just you know what I mean they shove it, they don't talk about it, and I don't think that our society really looks at the man and like sees that this was a part of them as well, and my husband was able to grieve, hold and be a part of it, and it really bonded us. I would say definitely even more, because we both had that experience.

Speaker 1: 16:06

So yeah, and I just I think you share that really well in the book and you know not to speed through the book, but I mean you went through this twice. Just so people understand this was a double experience for her, which is part of the like, you know. I like get through the first one and I'm like, oh my gosh, we're gonna have to do this again. The exact same thing, Yep.

Speaker 1: 16:28

As I'm reading I'm like, oh my gosh, it's not even my children and I'm already feeling this. So you know you went through this process twice and I also appreciate and we'll dive a little bit more into grief and walking through this with people in the second half. But what you're saying I could see really well. You laid it out beautifully in the book, just the sense of being able to grieve the process well and what that looked like and how delivery was able to play part of that. So, like you said, if someone has the choice I mean bottom line this book is obviously the link will be in our show notes. You all know that. But you know, if you have been through this or you know somebody that has been through this, even if you never have and we pray that you never do being able to read this, just to have the understanding, if God forbid, that is your story or, god willing, it's your story. I guess we could change the narrative there.

Speaker 1: 17:27

You know, then you need to be prepared and I just think I have not read a better book so far on what that looks like and, if you have the option, I think you explained the delivery process really well and where the healing came from in that, so I really appreciated that. What would you say? This is sort of like a side note question. In writing this book or in reading this book, is there one point that you have found resonates with people more than any? Do you hear consistent, especially for women who have experienced this? Is this sort of like a pause in the story? I'm just curious. That's fine If there's been like a consistent eam.

Speaker 2: 18:50

I would say, as far as the book as a whole and the writing as a whole is, I've heard people, someone said and I've heard this in different ways of like you said things that I was thinking and I didn't say it out loud because I was too afraid to and I think, as a whole, the theme was from women who have walked it like they felt seen and heard and understood when maybe they weren't able to express it or know how to grieve it themselves, and so it was kind of like a which was my goal.

Speaker 2: 19:43

That was like my goal of sharing this. When I got to the point of like this, could you know I could put this in a book and share it I was like I want women and men who have gone I have had men read it to know that they are not alone in their struggle. That is, I think, the biggest thing that people have to say. Like I feel not alone now, like I in the things, even the like the very real and raw and vulnerable things that I share and which we're going to dive into more.

Speaker 1: 20:20

You guys don't worry.

Speaker 2: 20:22

I feel like it's like people are are. We're scared, right. We're scared to grieve, we're scared to say things that are like what? Why would you even think that you know?

Speaker 1: 20:34

and why do you think talking about miscarriage is such a because? I've heard this many times why do you think it's such a like taboo or shameful thing for women to talk about?

Speaker 2: 20:49

I think in your experience, yeah, I, as I talked to them because I like, I guess I didn't fit that mold, because I, I'm, like, I'm going to talk about this.

Speaker 1: 20:59

You know you and me I mean girl we're cut from the same cloth.

Speaker 2: 21:02

Like I'm perfectly empowered.

Speaker 1: 21:04

I'm all about sharing. It's why we're here.

Speaker 2: 21:05

Yeah, but, but we are unusual.

Speaker 1: 21:08

Yes.

Speaker 2: 21:08

Yeah, I, because it didn't why, but I guess it I shouldn't say I'm like like, perfectly, like, oh, I'm going to, you know, share everything, but, um, there is a shame of something's wrong with me. I did something wrong. That's always the. I think the first thing that goes through women's mind is what did I do wrong? What is wrong with my body that I killed this child? Like there, because you're so attached to your child, right, like they are a different human being but they're in you and you're the one that is that God created you to give them the source to live. And then, all of a sudden, the baby is is gone and it dies.

Speaker 2: 21:52

You just think, I mean, you're going like women, you go through the and I did the same thing, like, did I? Did I not take all my vitamins? That I missed? You know, like I'm like, oh, my goodness, I, I might have been too strenuous with my exercise. Um, I, literally so. I used to teach preschool gymnastics and um, they, I, it was like little kids, right, and I was. I was again, I was in my first trimester, right, barely even had a baby bump, and one of the kids like kicked me accidentally. And then I'm thinking did that kill my child. You know, and you're going through the whole list and it's always like it's me, it's me, and so I think that shame that we carry of um. Something's wrong with me and I don't want people to know that.

Speaker 1: 22:41

And then what would you say from your experience and you talk about this in the book, but specifically with this thought what would you say to that shame? What would you say now to the woman who, because shame is shame, right, whether it's a miscarriage or it's something else that's happened in your life, I mean, yes, shame is shame, it's a human emotion and so, whether it be specific to miscarriage or whatever it is in your experience, what would you say to that feeling of shame?

Speaker 2: 23:13

Yeah, Well, and I who?

Speaker 1: 23:14

experiences it.

Speaker 2: 23:15

Yeah, and I have heard that shame is when we turn it becomes an identity statement. Right, like I am, my struggle I am, it's not. I struggle with this. You know, I struggle with anxiety. I struggle with the person. I struggle with whatever it is. I am this, and so I think that that's where that shame of it's it's we. We were not detaching it. In a sense of this is something that happened to me. It is this, I am this thing going through it.

Speaker 1: 23:54

And so what? I would. Be beautiful, though it's a great definition.

Speaker 2: 23:56

Yeah. So what I would say is no, no, you, you didn't cause the death of your child. You, you did not. You aren't. Your grief yeah, even you are not. This, Like this, is something that has tragically happened to you, and I think that as you walk through what I had learned to them because what happens is the grief then becomes you and there is a that's when we can get into that spiral of darkness instead of seeing it as kind of something separate and like wait, I'm actually more than my miscarriage. Yeah, I'm a mother of two other children, I am a life, I am a friend, I am a you know. Fill in the blanks, I am more than what is happening to me. And then we can kind of take grief and see it and then be able to deal with it instead of it being a no. This is.

Speaker 1: 25:02

This is my life. Okay, I did not give her this. Heads up, christina, we're going to play a quick round of this or that? Oh no, it is very simple. No stress, two options. Okay, she's like, I'm type A, you didn't.

Speaker 2: 25:14

I know.

Speaker 1: 25:15

You didn't prepare me. Okay it's. It's pretty straightforward, I should call it. Would you rather I keep saying this? Oh my gosh, I need to like put this in my script. Would you rather cake or pie Cake? What's your favorite kind of cake?

Speaker 2: 25:37

My mom always for my birthday forever. Chocolate cake with homemade peanut butter icing.

Speaker 1: 25:44

Yeah, I mean, it's an oldie, but a goodie. It has to be made well, yes, would you rather listen to music or a podcast? Music, yeah, what's your favorite. What do you listen to Like? What's your go to when you turn it on? This is likely what you're going to hear on Christina's playlist.

Speaker 2: 26:08

Well, we can get to that. I actually have a Spotify, Spotify and YouTube playlist of the songs that were very, very meaningful to me through my journey.

Speaker 1: 26:18

Oh, I love that so.

Speaker 2: 26:20

I mean whatever like worship contemporary Christian is basically what I go to.

Speaker 1: 26:28

So yeah, so would you rather go to a movie premiere. So let's bring Brett into this Would you rather see. Brett in a movie, or would you rather see him in the theater, in like a play?

Speaker 2: 26:48

Oh, like a theater play. Yes, movie yeah.

Speaker 1: 26:53

Yeah, what's your favorite movie?

Speaker 2: 26:55

he's ever done, oh well, okay Well. Spoiler alert we just finished the film.

Speaker 1: 27:00

Here we go Bring it Sorry.

Speaker 2: 27:01

Brett, I know no, we just we did our own film the fall of 2022 and he worked all last year, 2023, completing the film. It's called Disciples in the Moonlight and it is. We are now. It's finished and we are. He is now shopping it around to distributors and we are now seeing how we can get it out to the country and possibly the world. Is this?

Speaker 1: 27:28

the first one that has been done on your own.

Speaker 2: 27:31

No, we did one years ago that he produced and directed and so forth. So this is one that we've been actually trying to do for the last about eight years and which the Lord is sovereign over that, and we see now his hand of why we needed to wait and so forth. And so it's basically the premise is what would kind of like, what would it be like if the Bible was illegal in the United States? And it's these, this team that has to basically take the word of God across state lines to like underground churches. So it's very, very exciting and that would be my, and I watched it a few weeks ago for the first time because I'm one of those people that I don't want to see it. I don't want to see it until it's completely finished. Sometimes he'll ask me my opinion. Well, he's always asked me my opinion, but I was kind of like I don't want to see it, and so I got kind of private screening and it is phenomenal and that is probably so far my favorite project of his.

Speaker 1: 28:43

So fun. I love that. Yeah, that really is we should. We should get you and Brett on the podcast to talk about filmmaking. Definitely. That is a whole another world.

Speaker 2: 28:52

Yes.

Speaker 1: 28:54

Okay. Would you rather be a ninja or a pirate? Very serious question Ninja, what would you do with your ninja skills? It's actually on my bucket list not to be a ninja, but to like self-defense like Krav Magar. That's yes, yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:08

Literally on my list. Yeah, so Brett and I forever we're waiting for the kids to get a little older, but I said well, maybe this will be. I know I was like maybe this will be our 40 when we turn 40 and like it'll be our the year, the 40, whatever we want to take like MMA classes and do like a little bit of everything, and so, yeah, definitely interesting.

Speaker 1: 29:30

I'm in. I'm in, I'll join. Okay, I'm across state lines. Would you rather own a personal yacht or a private jet? No-transcript.

Speaker 2: 29:42

Oh.

Speaker 1: 29:43

I know, I know Probably a private jet I'm afraid about that one.

Speaker 2: 29:46

I really want to travel all over.

Speaker 1: 29:49

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 29:50

And so a jet, so I can get everywhere.

Speaker 1: 29:53

Where's the first place you're flying on your private jet, italy. Yes, I'm all joining you there too.

Speaker 2: 30:01

Yes, I have Italian blood in me and that's always been my like. I would love to go and see where my yeah, my grandparents and great grandparents are from, so yeah, and it is beautiful and warm.

Speaker 1: 30:17

Yes, love it. Yes, you guys are in Indiana, right? Yes, yes, and we're in Pennsylvania, so we got the same weather, guys in cold weather states.

Speaker 1: 30:26

You understand, yes, you understand. Well, let's talk a little bit more about the nitty gritty. Like this is. This is the uncomfortable elements that are just so hard to bring up in normal conversation. Right, it's like you've had a miscarriage or you know, multiple stillbirth, like fill in the blank, and this is true even of birth, actually even of delivering a quote unquote normal experience.

Speaker 1: 30:56

I was shocked how much after that I was not prepared for, and I went to nursing school. But like breastfeeding, there was elements to breastfeed and there was elements to breastfeeding that nobody told me how painful it would be, nobody told me that, like my nipples would literally be red and cracked and swol, like no one prepared me for that. And it's like, unless you have the right people in your life, you're not talking to anybody about it and that's just a you know, quote, unquote normal experience. Or like sex after delivery no one really prepared me for that. Right, we're going to the bathroom after having a vaginal delivery, like so many things, and that's, with a quote unquote, like happy experience.

Speaker 1: 31:36

And so I think to your point, this is one of the reasons that these physical things aren't talked about after a really sorrowful experience, cause it's like you're already having a hard time verbalizing what you're feeling, let alone then all of the physical things that come after that. And so, again, for the sake of education or for the sake of just helping the listeners feel seen wherever you are, those of you listening and watching in your own journey, you know, I want Christina to be able to share some of that, which she does in detail and in the book. But one of the things that I had not thought of, despite the fact that I'm medical, is the fact that you would lactate after delivering a miscarriage. I just that makes perfect sense. I just hadn't really thought about that and the grief that would come from having to suppress. So tell me a little bit about that and what you walked through there.

Speaker 2: 32:34

Yes, Well, so to kind of to go from the very beginning, when I delivered our first so it was a boy again we were able to see and tell it was a boy very clearly, and so we dame him, seth and I delivered him, and then the placenta was not coming out and after delivering him and we had to wait, and then, of course, from a medical standpoint, if you leave any tissue in there you are risking infection, and I then had to go get a DNC after I delivered. So I kind of had to do, which is even though the baby was already out. It was just. It was another thing. You know, you're just just traumatizing, yeah Right, and after anyone miscarriages and delivers, you do. You don't want the constant reminders, but you have the constant reminders and that is what is what is the hardest part of it. And so with him, like I said, I had to then go and make sure I got it out, and then the second time that you had mentioned this happened twice and it literally was in.

Speaker 2: 33:52

A year later we tried again, in exactly 13 weeks. It was literally living the nightmare. Again, the exact same thing Went in, delivered. It was another boy. We named him Rowe after the name of God El Rowe, which means you're the God who sees me, and and so that that time I delivered, but then, as I went home, wait, I think. I'm like trying to remember. Sorry, again, I have to like listen I and no it was.

Speaker 2: 34:24

It was after Rowe. I was continuing to deliver pieces of my placenta and whereas I didn't, they, they, they, she was able to get you know all, most all, of it out. But then she did kind of say, you may still see some remnants from you know your uterus. And so, sure enough, I was then delivering, continuing to deliver the placenta and it, of course. Now I'm like, yeah, I'm worried and I get a you know and whatnot. And I ended up, even after Rowe, having like severe leg pain. And then we were like, well, you might have a blood clot. So I had to, I had to go in and I'm sitting at the table I don't have. I don't know if this made it in the book. I'm like I need to read my book again. No, but I had, because I did. I wrote so much and I had, I had so much out, which is normal.

Speaker 2: 35:20

But I had to go get you know an ultrasound on my leg and I'm laying there and of course I'm like now I don't want anything to do with a doctor, I don't want to be on a table, Like, get me home, I do not want to be on a table.

Speaker 2: 35:35

And she's like, and I'm like moving and she keeps yelling at me to stop and I'm thinking like you don't know what I just went through, you know and whatever and stuff, and so I'm dealing with that and it's just like you do. I'm like get my, can my body just be, be normal again.

Speaker 1: 35:53

And medical fatigue, those she has not mentioned this yet, but you also have Crohn's disease. Yes, so this, the whole concept of, you know, chronic disease, for anyone that has suffered from a chronic disease like you, also understand this. But you know, I'm sure not to put words in your mouth, but I'm sure there's just this underlying baseline of medical fatigue where, like that underlying sense of, I would just love for my body to feel normal. So to add on top of this, you know I mean that compounds it even more.

Speaker 2: 36:27

Well, and that then I did flare around the same the time of both these miscarriages. So then I go through the book of the journey of, and this is where I was like it's me, I have this, I have this bowel disease, I have this autoimmune disease. I am killing my child which, going through it, we actually never there was, no, no, no, conclusive. There is no conclusive answer to that. If, if my the autoimmune was reacting with them, but but yes, it was then I had to deal with the flare on, you know. So you have the physical manifestations that are on top of the emotional, and I think even after rowey was a lot more and and I, and then, you know, the milk comes in, which I knew I had done that with Seth, and then you have to, literally, you know, I have a cousin who is a lactation consultant and she was just like all right here, you know, normally you're going to the lactation consultant after birth. What are all the things I need to do to, you know, get my milk flowing.

Speaker 1: 37:36

And this.

Speaker 2: 37:36

I'm saying these are all the things you need to do to suppress your milk and literally hanging over the sink and trying to get milk to come out, and emotional, and you're just like and of course you know you don't waste breast milk, that is like it's the goal. You know you don't waste it and I'm, I'm watching it come out of me and there's no, no, they need to give it to and it's. It's that, that constant reminder, and so of loss, it's more loss. Yes.

Speaker 2: 38:11

Yeah it's more loss. And and then, as you're going through all the physical, like we had said, like you just want your body to be normal, mine, I was just thinking. I want my physical by neural so I can focus and work on the emotional, you know because it's now it's this like, and it is. It's kind of all wed together, but it does feel like you almost. I have to deal with all of the physical, which then is fueling the emotional. That makes sense.

Speaker 1: 38:45

Yeah, and it, I think again something that you did explain beautifully in the book is just constantly holding intention. The quote unquote normal experiences that were in such juxtaposition to the abnormal experiences that you were having. Meaning, like lactation is totally normal, but instead of it now being this joyous thing, it's a reminder of grief. Going into the hospital I'm quoting the book. You said this and I laughed and like cried out loud all at the same time. But you're like there isn't a checklist for what to bring to the hospital when you are delivering a baby that won't be coming home. You know, and I laughed out loud while I'm crying because I'm like it's so true, it's just this sense of I should be rejoicing and yet I'm devastated, and just that.

Speaker 1: 39:34

Really, you know, challenging living in that tension for so many different reasons. One of the other things that you talked about that was also just like uh was something I'd never thought about is the options of what to do with the child or the tissue, with the remains. Yeah, and that was an education for me as well. Talk a little bit about that with miscarriage or stillbirth, what it looks like on that end of it once you have delivered the tissue or the form child, depending on the type of miscarriage or stillbirth.

Speaker 2: 40:09

Yeah, so there's actually like laws about it. So it's not even just say oh, you can do whatever you want type of thing. And so, obviously, if somebody has a DNC you have, no, there's nothing like they're not going to. They dispose of the child. But once you deliver a child, if it's after 20 weeks, you wait. I don't know. I got to think about this. I think I wrote about it. You're bringing me on the spot. It's been a while no worries, that's why you?

Speaker 1: 40:41

guys have to get the book. I know you have to get the book.

Speaker 2: 40:45

So we're 13. So they basically told us that we could take they would, they would dispose of the body? Yes, they would cremate it yes.

Speaker 2: 40:59

So what they do is our hospital they take. They they're like hey, we will take the baby week, we put them week, then they get them all cremated and then there's actually a spot at our, in our towns, what's it called cemetery, where they they spread the ashes and as and so they'll take all the babies from I don't know how, like every so many months or whatever, and they will then and they will spread the ashes. So they were like we can do that. They were like or we could call the funeral home and the funeral home will take the baby and we could then either bury the baby or cremate it ourselves. I think then after 20 weeks, the difference is they basically are like I don't think they, the hospital will handle the baby, like gotcha. You have to then call the funeral home and you either because now it's viable.

Speaker 1: 41:53

So it's yes, yes.

Speaker 2: 41:55

So they will. That that's the difference. So the hospital, up until that point, can, well, you can give them the option to to take care of it, and and so then the yeah. Then you're like again, these are decisions, you have no idea, and you don't think, in the midst of grief, and you're just like physical pain, all of it. Yeah, you're just like what's the right answer? And then you're like, am I going to regret something? And all of that? And I, I was like, well, if they're going to, if either we cremate it, if we take it, or if the hospital like I would rather, like that was kind of like we were like we would rather, instead of it, just like go to, but again, everyone, everyone's different, and and so we chose. And then we, of course, we could have like gone through the whole process of bearing the baby and and whatnot, but we, I don't know for us, like and I know we can get into the whole like I don't know theology on cremation versus, you know, whatever we were on the, the, the listen.

Speaker 1: 43:00

I'm like my theology level would not be high enough to even probably. Yeah, I'm just like, I'm fine with cremation. We'll put it that way. Ok yeah, and some people. I personally want my body to be spread under a tree because I want my death to represent life because, hallelujah, this is not my home.

Speaker 2: 43:17

Yes, yes, I would be more alive than ever after I die.

Speaker 1: 43:20

So right Exactly.

Speaker 2: 43:21

God is. God is going to redeem our bodies, whether somebody amen burn to the stake or whatever Right.

Speaker 2: 43:28

So anyway, and that's people and I and I want to respect those people. But so we did not see anything wrong with cremating. So that was the thing I was like. Well then I and we didn't want to bury, like it, you know, in our backyard, because what if we move. I was like I want this baby with us. So that's what we chose for both of them. We had the funeral home come get them, had them cremated, and then we have these little like jars that we have of Seth and Rowie.

Speaker 1: 43:56

So but yeah, like I said, this scene that you depict in the book is really poignant with that because it's just so raw, it's vulnerable and you know the concept of like Brett bringing I think you said like Brett brought the jar to work or something, and it was just. This is so real and this is the conversation you know and for those of you listening and watching, some of you have already felt your heart rate pick up a little bit. Some of you have already felt that awkward sense of discomfort, like like this just feels weird to talk about. And that's literally why we're talking about it, because we need to be able to normalize the conversation so that you are equipped to listen to someone else and give another woman or yourself permission to talk about hard things.

Speaker 2: 44:41

Yeah, yes, yeah, because we can't, and that's the thing is, like when you stuff grief, it's going to come out somehow.

Speaker 1: 44:50

Yeah, it's going to isolate you, and I want you to talk about this for a second, because you had a great, great quote and this is literally leading to what you were just about to say is the grief is going to come out at some point, and how do we have it come out in a healthy way? But you said this. I want you to talk about this. The quote was oh.

Speaker 1: 45:13

I'm going to have to read it and write it out. Sorry, you go y'all. Page five this is where we are. You said this was after your first one with Seth. You said, as history is shown with my personality, I want the steps needed to fix whatever problem I have, or for God to immediately show me what he's trying to teach me. Am I being punished for sin? Is he trying to tell me of an idol I need to get rid of? I'm scared.

Speaker 1: 45:40

At the moment, I tip over to really ask them and, trying to find the answers, I downward spiral and then, not far from that, you talk about the idea that, as history is shown with my personality, you told yourself I can't isolate myself, which I'm prone to do in pain. And so where I want you to be able to speak to, that is this idea of isolation and how grief does have a tendency for many of us to make us withdraw. So talk a little bit about that and how to overcome that, as we all know that isolation, grief, is like bad idea. We don't want that.

Speaker 2: 46:23

Right, I think. First it comes back to what we were talking about with Shane, I think. With any grief and loss and struggle and pain, there is this again, we take it on ourselves and so we don't want I mean that goes all the way back to Genesis three, right? I mean that is our human response is to cover, to isolate, to hide, and that is what we're going to do, whether it is actual sin or an effective sin, which is death and a miscarriage, and so we take it on ourselves, we shame and that's, therefore, is something wrong with me and I don't want people to know, I don't want to be more judged. There's the fear of rejection, right? What are people going to think, and so forth. And I think that in our grief we do that. That's why we hide and we isolate and we don't want people to know I.

Speaker 2: 47:31

The other lie that I think that devil will whisper is nobody. Nobody is like you. You're alone. You're alone Like you're. There is this you nobody would understand, because nobody's experience this, and I think, where there's truth, that every person's experience is different. We are all human, we're all made in the image of God and there is gonna be way more commonality than there actually is in that, and so that constant of well, you're the only one, christina, that is so angry and is questioning God, right? So, even like something like that is like, well, what would people think if they actually knew what I was thinking?

Speaker 2: 48:29

Fortunately, brett and I were able to come together, but I think the statistic is 80% of marriages fall apart after a death of a child in any form. I can believe that, yeah, and so, because what happens is there is that I mean right there in the marriage. So we're not even talking about, like friendships and loved ones and whatnot. Like even in the marriage where it starts to be this like you don't understand, or you're grieving differently than me, or you're not seeing it from my or what you know, and that's then where the division is, because it's very, I mean, let's be honest grief is so inward, and whereas that we do, it's okay, right If we do it, but we can't stay. We can't stay inward, because that's then where you will downward spiral, in the shame, in the lies of you're alone and there is no hope and people don't understand, and I mean the list can go on, right. So that's then.

Speaker 2: 49:28

How do you step out of that you have to step out. You have to come out of yourself in the sense of reaching out for help, telling someone, telling people, telling someone that you trust In the book. I clearly show that the first and best answer is being honest with God. He already knows, and I love the Psalms, they're my favorite book of the Bible and it is if they are so real, they're so vulnerable, they're like where were you got? Like taking that first and foremost to the Lord is the beginning, I feel, and then the next step is share. You don't have to share, you don't have to put on social media people.

Speaker 2: 50:18

You know, like some people do we were vocal about it and we had people, but I'm saying there isn't this like well.

Speaker 1: 50:25

I have to say it's not all or nothing. It's what you're saying, it's not. You don't have to write a book about it.

Speaker 2: 50:30

Exactly, it's not. It is more just like step out to the people that you trust, that can come alongside you and walk with you and I feel like right there you're able to have those first steps of healing really.

Speaker 1: 50:45

Yeah, you mentioned marriage and I appreciated your vulnerability too about a very understandable fear of intimacy. You know, having sex again, this idea of like protecting yourself again, it's that protective piece and I think that's something that's been coming from more loss and it's like I'm terrified to get pregnant again. You talked about that, which I think was so good, but talk to us a little bit more just about healing in marriage. Briefly, like what were steps that you and Brett took? Because I think what you said is so good that you know, even within marriage, it's incredibly difficult to heal from this and through grief of any kind and struggling, what are the steps that they can take that you and Brett would say from your experience, you know how quickly do you talk to each other first, or do you give space for each other to grieve in their own way and you talk to someone else first and then come together? Like what is the process for someone even to take that next step out?

Speaker 2: 51:53

Yeah, that's a great, great question. I, everyone's gonna be different in the sense of what, how they're going to grieve, and that's just finding that what is going to work the best for you. And so in a marriage, the two of you will probably not grieve the same, and so I feel like patience is huge and like just being patient with each other. The biggest thing I think with grief that people need to understand is that there is no timetable. There is no timetable and it's not linear. So when you look at your spouse, you have to keep that in mind, that maybe one of the spouse is gonna be walking through healing a little faster than the other one, but they can't shame or they can't, you know, put down the other one because they're not doing it fast enough, like you know, like thinking or even saying out loud like Mom, why are you still grieving and why are you so sad?

Speaker 2: 53:02

And you know, in all of those things can be very damaging because then we're not listening. We're listening is huge too, like taking the time to sit and like how are you doing and where are you at? My husband and I have a great marriage where we are each other's best friends, so it is very we were a lot of times what so for me personally, because I wrote he would give me space, he was. That was the thing of we had this like I was like I got it, I got to go right and he's like okay, and I'm kind of the one like I need to get it out now I got it.

Speaker 2: 53:39

I got to like vomit this out. And so he's like, okay, what do you need? And I was like, hey, tomorrow can I? Whatever he's like, sure I'll take the kids or I'm gonna, of course, with his or his mom was available, we can get someone, or whatever. And I would go off and write and then when I was done, I gave it to him and he read it and he was able to see and process as well what I was going through and then it helped him be able to grieve as well.

Speaker 2: 54:09

So that was a very personal, tangible way that we did it. And so, whatever that could look like maybe someone is in a writer or a journal, or maybe it is just talking, or they're doing something artistic or it, whatever that looks like maybe it's just getting in, crawling up and having a good cry and Brett would just hold me. Even just his presence was I see you and it's okay and I'm here with you, type of thing. And so we have to just like again the whole like. There's no timetable, it's not linear, so even if someone, months down the road, has whatever like, it's just okay, like you just it's not bad.

Speaker 2: 54:56

I think, like I think we just see this like this is a bad thing and it's not that If we can see grief as a good and a beautiful and needed thing, we can offer each other the grace to be able to walk through it, however that looks. And then, on the flip side, where I was saying, like one may be struggling, the person who's struggling can't look at the person that isn't struggling and think that, oh well, you must not think that this baby was that important, you know like no, that's not what that is, it's again not linear.

Speaker 1: 55:28

It's like that that might be tomorrow for them. Yes, yeah, right now, it's not today.

Speaker 2: 55:34

Yes, and, by God's grace, like there were moments where I was doing really well and he was not, and I was able to carry him and then the moment, that kind of flipped where I was really struggling and he was able to carry me, and that's how.

Speaker 1: 55:50

Giving each other space to do that. So I want to offer another tangible thought. I love how you said you would write and then Brett would read it. I think one of the challenges for a lot of us is women, or men even is it's hard to say what you're really thinking to a spouse's face.

Speaker 1: 56:09

And another thought would be, for someone who doesn't want to write, the idea of just voice recording and it's verbal vomit. I mean, you just, whatever it's like, instead of shouting to an empty room, you record it and you just let yourself go and you express your thoughts and you record it and then maybe you share it with your spouse later and maybe you're not even in the room when they're listening to it. But to be able to let them hear your grief in real time and for them to be prepared, that like this is raw and you have to be able to handle what I'm saying and understand. This is me grieving, but this is also maybe a way for couples to be. I mean, I'm thinking like this would be a practical thing for many marriages, just to be, whether it's grief or anything and to be able to play it back Later if you don't feel like having it in real time is something I'm just throwing out there in real time because I love the.

Speaker 2: 57:06

The Writing. Yeah, I think that. I think that's great and I. Another point too is you know, men, and or at least my husband, he wants to immediately fix the problem, right.

Speaker 1: 57:18

So it's familiar.

Speaker 2: 57:19

Yeah, like trying to find the solution because, like he sees me in pain and suffering and he went away, because we do about it yeah.

Speaker 2: 57:27

And I think that with the writing and I like your voice idea and it's just like saying hey, babe, look, you don't even have to respond to this, but I'm not respond to it. Yeah, or don't respond, yeah, like I'm not looking for an answer, I'm not looking for whatever. If you have something like, ok, but I just want, I just need to get this out and I just need to listen, and it then puts the pressure off of him to feel like, oh, I got to answer this or I got to whatever.

Speaker 1: 57:52

It's like no, I just want you to hear me and that's.

Speaker 2: 57:56

That's kind of how we we tried to operate that, so yeah, yeah, I love that.

Speaker 1: 58:01

One of the things that you're passionate about and is the topic for your next book and I think this is beautiful Is creating that space for people to share their experiences so that we can better come alongside someone who has experienced miscarriage, stillbirth or infant loss. What I'll share with us a little bit about that.

Speaker 2: 58:28

Yeah, so I had, after you know, my book being out and people knowing my story, I had several people that would come to me asking hey, my, so.

Speaker 2: 58:40

And so my friends, my loved one, my whatever, just lost a miscarriage, what, what like, and these were women who had never had a miscarriage. So they were like, what can I do to help them? And, honestly, I got tired of like typing out a response that sponsored. So last year somebody had done that to me and I sat there and I was like all right, and I'm typing out all this like do this, don't do this. You know, here's some encouraging tips. These are things to avoid.

Speaker 2: 59:10

And I'm like about ready to push said, and it was like Christina, you could write a book about this. And I, like, push said and I was like Christina, you could write a book about this. Oh, I was like I should do that, and so I started the process and I even have a like a form that people could have felt about that I try to spread the word of hey, if you have experienced loss, I would love to know what were the do's and don'ts Like, what were the really encouraging things, what were the not encouraging things, and gather kind of that out. So it's more than just my experience and just things that I have heard by talking to people, and so my goal is I want it to be. It'll probably be more like a, like a little booklet, you know, not a full.

Speaker 1: 59:59

Yeah, like one of your little. Are you still collecting responses? I am.

Speaker 2: 1:00:03

I am still, because I you know life gets busy and I yeah sure I'm still working on it so I could give you the link of that.

Speaker 1: 1:00:09

Yeah, please.

Speaker 2: 1:00:13

I have gotten some phenomenal things and I think that people are going to be. I tried on it when I read some of these things that people, the things that people say that are just and it's, it's people just don't you do, you don't understand, you don't people just don't, you can't like.

Speaker 2: 1:00:33

I didn't understand before, and I know that I have said a lot of things that were probably like, well, I should not have said that, we all do it and so I just want to bring awareness and, yeah, something tangible that people can see and be like oh okay, these are the things that I think this person would help and things to to definitely please, please, please avoid.

Speaker 1: 1:00:56

Yes, for any of you who have experienced miscarriage, infant loss, stillbirth to be able to share your experience so that can get included in the book would be awesome. It's helping. It's helping all of us just collectively, as women and men, to be able to sympathize and share in the grief, as we want to do and should be doing. I want to conclude with this sort of full circle moment, one of the things that in my own life and you have mentioned this several times as well grief is often so closely related to fear and on this side of eternity, in our human state, it is so hard to separate the two. And you share such a beautiful you know at one point in your book and I think a lot of you listening and watching can relate. But I just want to read something from her book. And Christina says how do I move on from my past when it has made me who I am today? I loved and cared too much for a son and then another son and it ended with ashes on my bedside table and I will probably not get through this without crying. Who am I today when I feel so lost, when my future changes in a matter of a silent heart doppler, when I constantly feel like I am in limbo, when, once again, I have to delete social media off my phone because other women's lives are full of a hopeful future, while mine is a blank slate. Ladies, men, if this is you listening, this is Christina's answer to her own struggle. She says later the Holy Spirit reminded me of this. He doesn't love me any less because of my past or because he is continuing to allow pain and suffering in my life.

Speaker 1: 1:02:51

I'm on my knees in this park with my face pressed onto the carpet. I'm on my knees with my face pressed onto the carpet of my living room as we pray. I can't get up from this position. This is where I am supposed to be. I'm so overwhelmed in this moment. This is enough. This is my purpose in the pain to worship, to follow his feet, not to do anything else, not living up to others' expectations or my own expectations. Before I was a wife, before I was a mom, I was an am a daughter of the King. Nothing in this life can change that. If I were to literally stand in the presence of Jesus and didn't do another thing, it would be enough. My relationship with him and my worship of him is enough to glorify his name and that I needed that reminder Right there.

Speaker 1: 1:03:47

Hey, man, don't we all? But you just are such an inspiration, your willingness to be vulnerable and, at the end of the day, to allow the Lord to work through that pain and to recognize that in the end it is all about worship, whether it's through struggle, whether it's through grief, whether it's through blessing, but at the end we worship through it all and for Jesus that's enough, and so that's really. The call is to worship, and that's what I was encouraged by, and it was just such an honor to have you here in your story. Where can people find you and cheap an eye on you and learn more about what you do and get this book and the next book coming?

Speaker 2: 1:04:35

Yeah, so my website is Christina Varvallcom and that's basically where I'm at. I'm not on social media currently, and that could be another blog post. I'm not on social media and so I People can buy my book on my website or my book is also on Amazon that you can find. I have the hard copy and an ebook version on Amazon. You can get the hard copy One of these days. I'd love to do an audio book if my husband can take some time.

Speaker 1: 1:05:08

Yeah, there you go. I would love to do the audio book.

Speaker 2: 1:05:12

That's a goal I still want to do, but anyways, I also blog. So on ChristinaVarvallcom, I have a blog that I continue to just write and share about life in general. So, people can know and follow me, and so forth.

Speaker 1: 1:05:30

Yeah, christinavarvallcom, of course, as always, we will have the book link in the show notes or on YouTube in the description. And yeah, check her out Also. Be sure to fill out that link in that form If you have experienced loss similar and want to be able to share your story. You all have heard it from me many, many times it is the one thing that no one can ever take away and no one can ever duplicate. It is your story and that is a gift that the Lord has given you to share. So thank you so much for sharing yours, christina. It was an honor.

Speaker 2: 1:06:02

Yeah, thank you so much. I've been blessed by this, thank you.